What is community? A conversation with Jennifer Pauline, founder of With/Creators

Ironically, I met Jennifer Pauline as I was going through a particularly anti-social moment. It was December 2022 and I will admit, Jordan had to convince me to celebrate how to be a woman on the internet with a small community dinner. Aside from my bout of introversion, I also just don’t go to a ton of events so I was wary about throwing one. And honestly listening to this interview would have been a lot of help – because as soon as Jordan brought her own flower arrangements to the restaurant I knew I was in way over my head as a host! 

But it turns out that having Jennifer Pauline as a dinner guest is pretty much as comforting as having her hard-earned wisdom on community building. It was in this interview that I learned more about her 7+ years with Soho House, building community, curating experiences, and heading up their launch in Hong Kong, and also everything that’s gone into creating intimate, guest-centered experiences with her own creative studio With/Creators. But it was at our dinner that I learned Jennifer is just one of those people you instantly feel at ease with – who looks you in the eye, listens carefully, and comes ready to bring her full self to the conversation. I hope you’ll read on or listen to our chat – we talk community, loneliness, Jennifer’s #1 metric for success, and where so many “community-building” events go wrong.

She’s got a ton of insight – I have just one. Get out of the house! You might meet someone like Jennifer Pauline.

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Jennifer Pauline: There's so many different definitions of community, but the one that I feel most connected to is a feeling of fellowship with others as a result of sharing common attitudes, interests and goals. The spin on that, for me, is what does it look like when it's not just the common attitudes, interests and goals, but shared values? For me, that's really what community is – bringing people together that have shared values because, you know – you and I are totally different. We look different. We come from different backgrounds. We might have completely different interests. But we do have some overlapping values when it comes to doing things with intention and having meaningful conversation. And so I consider this a form of building community. 

What is not community? I think what's not community is anything that is short-term and transactional. And is not really thinking about how am I investing in this whole person and their experience in the world and making it better. And I think a lot of people nowadays, because community is considered a product and people are a membership… Pay and you can be a part of this club, a part of the brand – insert brand here club – and you get access to this perk and this and this and this and this. And I think it's getting further away from being people-centered and more focused on how can a brand aggregate super fans to spend money and to be a part of something but they're not really connecting people. Someone wrote a really good definition about the difference between an audience and a community. And he said, an audience is when you bring people together to engage with your product. And a community is when you bring people together through your product to engage with one another. 

Ford Blitzer: Wow - that's a great definition.

Jennifer: That resonated with me because that's a lot of the work that we do. We create experiences that are centered around said brand, product or whatever. But our ultimate goal is for you to have an experience with another person in the experience that we've created, that you can go away and feel like oh, I've learned something new, I met someone new, I'm trying something new, I have a new insight about something. Versus okay, I went to this party, and I got a free drink. And I left and the DJ was cool. And that was it.

I remember when I first started in this space, 10-15 years ago, and community wasn't a thing. And it was really just okay, I'm gonna get together with my friends. And maybe they'll invite friends. And that's it. And then you have the private clubs where people can pay and then they get access to said community. Nowadays, it's like, you can sign up for this and go to this program and go to this particular event, if it's an interest-based thing. And I think where it's falling short is it still feels transactional – there's still not an opportunity for me to say like, every Tuesday, I'm going to meet up with my walking club. And I know that I'm going to see Kelly there, because Kelly goes to the walking club every Tuesday like me, and that's our one time for us to catch up. And then I might meet somebody else, and they've just joined. And it just feels less about this brand was a sponsor and they got some money for it so they're gonna put an event together and then we're gonna all go and post about it. And then that's it. 

Ford: Do you think that the internet made things more transactional? 

Jennifer: Yes, because they are doing things for likes and posts…

Ford: Like cultural currency, of sorts. It reminds me of the story of this business owner telling another business owner I heard once, it doesn't matter how the event went in real life. What matters is how it looked on Instagram. 

Jennifer: Vanity metrics. 

Ford: Do you sense a demand from business owners and the people who go to these events that they want more from it? 

Jennifer: It depends on the type of business. We've worked on large scale to small scale businesses, which I love both but they come with their own sets of challenges and opportunities. And I think when you're looking at a large-scale business that has a bottom line to meet and is spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on events and community and marketing and all of that, it's going to be transactional because it's going to be tied to a product launch or release or something that they need immediate eyes on this right now.

Look at what's happening with Barbie. It's so many moments that I can't even keep up with it. But the minute the movie comes out, it’s over. So transactional, you know what I mean? Like, imagine if they built a Barbie experience for a women and family shelter that just lives forever – that's long term. That's building community. That's creating impact. But on the small end of the smaller businesses that I do notice is they do see the value of being consistent with connecting with their community and creating opportunities for them to engage with one another. 

Ford: Why did you start With/Creators?

Jennifer: So With/Creators – we’re a community-centered creative studio and it was really about a need that I could serve. I think at the time, I saw that there was a huge gap in underserved communities to be a part of experiences that were really thoughtful and aesthetically beautiful, and created opportunities for people to connect. Everything that I was able to do at Soho House, which was the most transformative experience of my life, I really wanted to take that and invest it into my communities - mostly multicultural communities. So thinking about the Black community, the AAPI community, Latinx, queer. And surprisingly, once I started, I was like, oh, there is a big need for this. I thought I was going to consult for a couple of brands that maybe wanted to have a better understanding of how to reach multicultural communities. And it turned into something that I wasn't really expecting. And honestly, when I first started, I wasn't doing that. I was like, helping a friend that has a really successful skincare line with PR, because that was like, Oh, I used to do that. So I could do that. I think everybody when they start their business, they're like, Okay, let me just do what I know. And so that was something that came natural to me, but I didn't love it. I wasn't really interested in pitching stories and hounding writers and all of that.

But in the midst of that, I was also helping them with understanding what it meant to build their communities. What sort of programming could we launch? What does it look like to have a newsletter to communicate with this community and bring them together? And then even on the… I like the term key opinion leader, which I learned when I was living in Hong Kong versus influencer – the people that are really driving conversation and thought leadership in different spaces. What does it look like to engage them in a meaningful way? To engage their community, as well, with the brand? Once I really understood exactly what I wanted to do on the community side, I really was able to get into building community with a Black-owned membership club called The Gathering Spot. And they were our first client and it was to help them open in Los Angeles…

Ford: A physical space? 

Jennifer: Yeah, they had a physical space. And we were really just thinking about how to amplify what their mission was without having the physical space. This was in the middle of the pandemic, so a lot of it was virtual. And what we were trying to do was to get people to talk about what was being built for them and by them in their small pods of communities that were happening across the city. And so one of the things that I love doing – one, at Soho House, but also for The Gathering Spot was really creating these hyperlocal experiences and helping people become essentially like tourists – but a curated experience – in their own city. 

Ford: What does that mean? 

Jennifer: One of the gatherings that we did was we got everyone together, and we did a day trip to Los Olivos, which is just outside of LA, near Santa Barbara, and did a natural wine trip and tasting and lunch. It's things that people wouldn't necessarily do on their own. But they'll do it together in a community. 

Ford: If you had to describe the short version of where you started with With/Creators and where you are now, is it constantly evolving?

Jennifer: For sure. I think from launch until now, one thing that I wasn't especially prepared for was becoming an event production studio as well. And I feel like that's something that evolved because we were super intentional about the guest experience at these events and curating guest lists and making sure that they felt very inclusive and were very inclusive. But over time, we also were focused on back of house. A lot of what we were doing with brands – we've worked with BYREDO, we recently worked with Netflix – we're not just thinking about what is the guest experience, but also what's happening back of house in terms of how is the money being spent and making sure that it's going back into these communities, because I think a lot of times people will really focus on, okay, like, let's just make sure the room feels diverse and multicultural and all of that. But everybody that you've hired are all of your friends that you always work with and you haven't gone outside of your comfort zone to think about, what does it look like to make sure that the front of house reflects the back of house and vice versa. And so I would say, that has been probably the most surprising for me, because that was not initially the goal. It was like, okay, we will curate different programming for people and create unique experiences. And intimacy is something that I'm really, really passionate about. So creating intimate experiences. But it definitely evolved when we started getting asked for bigger moments. And it's like, okay, so we can create these big moments, but how do we make it feel intimate and thoughtful and meaningful, even though it's for 200 people? 

Ford: So what in your eyes is a successful event? You're all done with it - what are the markers of success for you? 

Jennifer: The number one metric for success is that front and back of house leaves every event and experience that we do reminded that they matter. I mean, for me, that's basically it. And examples of that, for me, is we did something with Netflix for Indian Matchmaking. And we did it at their theater in Hollywood. And it was incredible because not only were we working with a South Asian restaurant and catering partner, BADMAASH, we also had a South Asian-owned snack brand. We also worked with South Asian community organizations to attend the event. And it felt like a holistic experience. So that, for me, is success. I feel like a lot of people just sort of like, okay, let me just go and grab this brand and this person – whatever is the coolest and freshest and whatever. But I think we also use experiences to introduce people to new things, too. 

Ford: How many events do you go to that aren't your own? Are you just so over it by that point that you don't go to events anymore? 

Jennifer: Kind of.

Ford: When you have, are there certain things you’re like, gosh, everyone gets this wrong. 

Jennifer: You know what, and it's funny, I'm reading The Art of Gathering still – shout out to Jordan for reminding me to pick that back up. But one of the terms that she uses which I had no idea and could not articulate this before, is this term of ushering, which is really helping to fuse your guests and experiences and being mindful of your guests’ experience from before the gathering starts, until it ends. So meaning – if we're inviting you to something, how are we preparing you for what you're entering? And what are your expectations for this gathering? How are we making it the most meaningful experience? A lot of the stuff that I do go to… It just lacks context. It's very logo-centered and DJ-centered or performer-centered. It’s not guest-centered. It's like, how many people can we get in a room? Great, got that checked off the list. So when I do a recap on this, I can say 500 people were there. And this DJ played, they've got this many followers, these influencers came… And that's it. And a lot of events do feel like that. And that's why for me, I love doing more intimate things because there's more metrics than just who's there with how many followers. It's how many new people each person connects with, what conversations happen. Was there a group discussion that people were able to have? You know, things like that, that aren't necessarily what maybe a brand might consider valuable.

Ford: Do you try to include stuff like that in your recap of it all? 

Jennifer: I think it can be challenging when, depending on who it is, if they don't value that and if it's not, again, something that can be measured. For me, for example, we recently hosted a Women in Charge at my house and what I consider to be the strongest metric outside of the conversation is what happened after. Did people stay in touch? Did they connect? And a friend texted me and sent me a picture of a collaboration that she did with someone that she met at the dinner. So for me, I'm like, oh, that's it. And it's funny when working at Soho House, those are the things that actually mattered more than who came in that day, how much money they spent, etc. It's the untold stories of, oh, this person met that person and they started a business together – that actually is more valuable but it takes more work to keep track of when that happens, how it happens. But it could take a year, it could take a decade, you just never know. But when you are able to say, oh, that happened, because they met at my house, or oh, that happened, because they met at this event that we put together – that's the most valuable, but it can't necessarily be measured all the time. 

Ford: If you're in this kind of work, it seems like you have to have a certain amount of foresight, you have to see the bigger picture. It's just making me think about this loneliness crisis that we keep hearing about. And you're thinking about community all the time. How do you think about that, when you hear it in the news?

Jennifer: It's interesting because like I was telling you earlier, I'm in my active participant era. So I'm doing my best to be out more and experience more. But for the most part of my career, I've been an active host, and really focused outwardly on what other people's experiences are, and to be super transparent, that gets isolating and it gets lonely because you're constantly… it's this output – so you're never really absorbing anything. So even though I'm hosting these things and inviting people over, I'm not fully present to experience it with people and connect with people and engage with people. So it resonates because you could be in a room full of people and still feel alone. 

Ford: So interesting that your job is actually such a good example of that – it makes total sense. 

Jennifer: Because I care, I don't know how to give less than 150%. And that can leave you very depleted. And so it becomes this interesting complex of where your job is to do x, but in life, we're supposed to experience x. So how do you take the job away from building community? How do I take that hat off and say, okay, it's not a job anymore. You know what I mean? It's very, very hard. So that also makes it just challenging when I'm engaging with people to not just be in the back of my head, like, Are they good? Do they need anything? And again, I know I talk about Soho House a lot. But that was a big foundation in my community building experience – that the member comes first. What do they need? How can we serve them? Is the glass empty? Hospitality – all those things. It can get very isolating because then at the end of the day, it's like, who's looking after the host? 

Ford: Do you feel like this was a tendency of yours before you started working?

Jennifer: Yes.

Ford: I feel like there's just stuff about each of our personalities that we will always contend with. But I love that you're taking a bit of a break right now because those are the times where you can step back and get creative about new ways to integrate both – to test out how you can give that to yourself while also still being you. I relate to that – I'm a perfectionist – how can I find the balance in accepting that part of myself and also putting a boundary on it? 

Jennifer: Yeah, I think the sabbatical is really great for me – my mini sabbatical, I should say, to really be a participant in other parts of life, but also observe me personally, in terms of things that I need to let go of so I can fully participate – not just be half in it and half overthinking. 

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Jennifer: I use the internet more now as a tool to cast a wide net to have a better understanding of what's happening in different communities. And then I use it also to communicate what it is that we're doing to the best of my ability and do a bit of storytelling. And also connecting with people – TikTok has been interesting for me. I had something go viral and it was basically a compilation of a week of events that we produced and people were just so fascinated by that. I found that my love for insights behind the scenes, I think that translates really well on the internet because people don't really want to just taste the sauce. They want to know how it was made. And so I think that's where it's been beneficial, and I've been able to build a bridge that feels authentic to me. I'm not the person that's going to sit on camera and talk to the camera and say, like, let me tell you about my day. 

Ford: Have you ever done that? 

Jennifer: Never. I did a Women in Charge in March…

Ford:  Sorry — what is Women in Charge?

Jennifer: I know, I keep talking about it. I started when I was at Soho. And essentially, I wanted to bring women together that were in charge of their lives, of their careers, and just felt like a modern support system. Again, going back to that transactional thing, I felt like a lot of the things that I went to, it's like, oh, we're having this big festival or this thing and come and enjoy, and sponsors have done all the things… and then that's it. And so Women in Charge for me is just this continuation of building a bigger and bigger support system to help people stay connected and meet IRL and have real conversations. And that was why I ended up hosting it at my house…

Initially, the way that it started, it was women leading in the creative industry and that's really still the foundation. It was launched in Portland and we brought like, lead designers from Nike and women that were really at the top of their game in different businesses there. 

Ford: And this was your idea, your content? That's so cool. 

Jennifer: And it was fun! But then I remember I kept trying to push again, like, a sponsor should want to be a part of this – they could just buy into the series and help cover the costs, etc. But nobody wanted to, and I'm like, Well, I'm gonna keep doing it because I felt like there was a need. So I did one in 2022 or 2021. But this time, I got even more specific and it was founders – multicultural women founders. 

But we have conversations at the table. And it's like, okay, you're a designer and you are a graphic designer – like y'all should be having a conversation, but then it's also, hey, who's your accountant? Because my taxes are crazy. And I don't really know what I'm doing. And should I be getting more write offs here? Or how much did you charge for that? And I was afraid to speak up for myself, how do you start that conversation? Or, oh, I need to let a client go, how did you let a client go? And it's such a great conversation because you've got women that had a business for 15 years or somebody that just started out. And so you've got like these different points within their business that they've done and they can all find intersectionality in the conversation that helps everybody. And that's Women in Charge. I love it and it's something that I'm super passionate about. And the one that I hosted at my house, the theme of it was “Emergence” and so I focused on female creatives that are emerging in their own spaces and I was pairing people up. I wanted to make sure everyone left having had conversation with at least two people –

Ford: Individual conversations. Because do you because you feel like the group thing can be intimidating for people?

Jennifer: It can be but also, for this one specifically, I wanted to be very intentional about how people were spending their time because it was limited. I didn't want this to be like a five hour thing. You come in, we've got food. And now I'm going to pair you up in groups, because I know your background and I know your background and I think that y'all should meet, but I want you to discover what that point of connection could be. And so I really think about those gatherings as, yes, what's happening there, but what do you have leaving here? And how do you feel supported afterward? 

Ford: Do you feel like you're starting to have a spidey sense about who would connect with who? 

Jennifer: Mhmm. And also, sometimes we'll ask questions before people come so we have a good idea of maybe what they're looking for, what their expectations are before they get there. 

Ford: How do you do that? 

Jennifer: One of the recent things that we did specifically for With/Creators – it wasn't with a brand or anything – was called A Time to Pause. And we just brought a small group to Tea at Shiloh, but I sent five questions to people – What season are you in? How can someone show up for you right now? What do you need? Like those sorts of things and then you're able to look at different people's answers and you're like, Oh, well, let's pair them together because they need this. They need that. And then they could support each other and it doesn't feel like I'm being needy. 

Ford: Is that a common practice to do ahead of an event? 

Jennifer: I don't know. I haven't been on the receiving end of that. I think we've recently just started doing that because if I'm going to be doing things out of pocket, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do it all the way that I want to – not just based on whatever metric a client is telling me to do… I would love it if someone asked me questions before I came to something so I knew that my time was being spent in a meaningful way versus like, so what are we doing here? I can have a drink at home…

Ford: How did you describe an active participant?

Jennifer: That's from the The Art of Gathering – well, the host part. An active host is someone that's not chill. They are thinking about engaging with their guests. It's like, come over, I'm greeting you, I'm creating opportunities for you to connect with other people. And I'm the glue between the whole experience… which I've always been that. And now in my active participant era, I'm going to go and I'm going to be fully present, I'm going to fully experience this, I'm going to actually talk to people, I'm not going to be in a corner on my phone…

Ford: So you’re not a host at all, if you're an active participant?

Jennifer: You can be but I'm choosing not to be. I'm choosing to be in the receptive mode. My posture this season is – I'm here to receive. And being in the receptive mode is about allowing, it's freely giving and freely receiving. It's just this constant flow, like ideas and opportunities, experiences, insights, letting things come to me, marinating on it, but then also letting it go. Which is hard. 

There's a book called Loving What Is and the concepts I love so much because she talks about how a lot of our life is spent deep in thought and not questioning the thoughts that we're having. And she talks about the three types of business that exist in the world – it's your business, other people's business and God's business and how you can save yourself by filtering things through those three types of businesses. And I'm like, Yes. And so sometimes, when I'm in my highest self, and I'm feeling affected by something, or I'm ruminating on something, I'm like, now wait a minute. Whose business is this? And 99% of the time it's other people's business or it's God's business, meaning it's out of my control or has nothing to do with me.

Ford: And so much energy gets drained – that's the thing about becoming aware of the thoughts is once you start to become aware of it, and then you realize, I've just been opening the drain, like my energy just flowing out of it…

Jennifer: Towards nowhere.

Ford: Towards nowhere. 

Jennifer: And that's ultimately the problem. Like, I love people. And I remember when I made the decision to take this mini sabbatical. I started to get to a point where I'm like, I don't want to be around people anymore. I've just been around people too much. And I don't want to live on this all or nothing scale anymore. Like this black and white. It's like, what is it like to live in the middle? There's so much peace and ease in the middle. 

Ford: How much of your work feels like it's been made harder by the Internet? I'm thinking in particular of urgency mentality. 

Jennifer: Oh, gosh, yeah… Urgency culture. I can't relate. *laughs* I can't, I don't want to, might sometimes dabble in, but the goal is to be completely removed from it. And I think a part of my depletion that I experienced recently is because I got wrapped up into this matrix of urgency culture – and you can opt out. I think what the internet does - and I'm actually on a break from Instagram right now. I still dabble in TikTok because there’s just so much to learn on TikTok…

Ford: Really?!

Jennifer: Like I've got a knee injury happening right now. And I'm dabbling in what exercises and massages that I can do. And also, I don't know the people on TikTok. I love that. I love seeing strangers live their best life on the internet. There's something about Instagram where it's like, you know, I'm following people that I'm either acquaintances, with friends, with family with, whatever and one thing that happens with the internet is we start to disconnect with our community, thinking that we're connecting with them because we're staying up to date online.

I was listening to a Life Examined they did on dopamine. And this lady was basically saying that social media is the drugification of connection. And I was like, well, girl, you got a point there… Because it's easy for me to, you know… There are friends I want to stay better in touch with that live in Hong Kong but the time difference is so challenging. It's easier for me to love your story or hit like on your picture and then disengage. But the real connection is hopping on WhatsApp, setting up a time to connect over the phone and have meaningful conversation, which I need to do. But it takes more work. And it takes more work to stay in touch with people. I saw something and they were talking about how in Europe, you could just go over your friend's house randomly and have dinner and it's like not a thing. But over here, it's like you have to plan things a month in advance – all of that. And I want to lean more again, into the flow. It's like, if you want to know how I'm doing, text me. If I want to know how you're doing, I'll text you. Not go off of whatever you're posting on Instagram, because you could be posting that because you need to meet a certain post quota every week and you could be posting and crying. I don't know.

Ford: Almost everyone at this point is attached to some form of social media as, like, work. 

Jennifer: And it's a part of their identity. I told a friend the other day I'm not on Instagram. And she's like, oh, I wish I could get off. Like, you can!

Ford: Why can't she?

Jennifer: I think that there is a relevancy issue that is deeper that people don't want to talk about and that's something that I had to come to terms with… If I get off Instagram, I'm not relevant anymore. Or if I'm not posting what With/Creators is doing on Instagram, we're not valuable. We're not considered relevant. If I'm not visible and showing you…

Ford: But what do you miss when you're tending to relevancy? Because if you're giving energy to that, then you're not giving energy to something that could be truly insightful to you. 

Jennifer: Exactly. And you're again not being fully present. And what's actually happening in life? I don't know what is happening - I don't know where my friends are, where they travel… A friend told me, oh, yeah, we were in the Caymans. Tell me, what did you do? I wouldn't have asked that if I just scrolled past it and saw it. And we probably wouldn't have even talked about it. Because I would have sent a message and said, Oh, you look so good. I hope you have fun. And that would have been the end. Versus - How is it? Show me some pictures. It felt so foreign to have that conversation.

Ford: Maybe she had a miscarriage on vacation… Something fucking insane could have happened - not to go dark - you're never gonna get the story…

Jennifer: You're never gonna. And that goes back to the small talk. I look at social media as small talk. And I look at engagement with people in real life as those longer meaningful conversations that we want to have - you have to fully get out of your comfort zone to say, I'm going to physically show up somewhere in a roomful of strangers or with my friend or whatever and be an active participant. 

Ford: So do you have any advice that you would give if someone is looking to build community, as an individual, as a business owner, would there be one piece of advice that you would give across the board? 

Jennifer: Whatever you do, and whatever you're building, I always just say - put the people first. And also start with the people that you're connected to already - I think it creates opportunities for y'all to have some sort of conversation where you have a better understanding of what their needs are. Make it needs focus first and not business needs-focus. People need-focus. I think when I'm thinking about working with a business, the first thing that I want to do is an analysis or a survey or something to get a better understanding of, where's your community at right now? I'll just say - if it's a coffee shop: who are your regulars? Do you even know them? Do you know where their birthday is? Do you know where they live? Do you know if they have a family? Have you met their family? Where do they work? Where are they from? Small things like that to start to have that conversation.

But when it comes to the business side of things, I think initially how you engage with your audience - before it becomes your community or fan or whatever - is the most important thing. I think people forget that whatever you're doing, you're serving people. And sometimes that goes out the window when you're thinking about a bottom line or okay, I'm watching this thing and I need as many eyes on it as possible. Who is the person that was there first? Talk to them. Have coffee with them. Ask them to host something with their friends. Get that super users community to be a part of the conversation that can have a ripple effect in their community first, because they have some sort of attachment to whatever it is that you're building. Find out what that attachment is. I think a lot of times when people build communities, it's very me centered and it needs to be community centered.

Ford: In your experience in real rooms with real people, are there feelings and trends that you notice that you don't see reflected on the internet? Or maybe you see it reflected as the opposite? 

Jennifer: It's interesting because one thing that I do notice most of the time is that people who are really good at having a personality on the internet, have no personality in real life. *laughs*

And then the other part is the lack of ability to have conversation with people. I think it's easy to be online and in comments or in DMS and you have time to think about a response or whatever, but real life, in your face, having a conversation… I think some people struggle with that. 

Ford: This is the question we ask everyone - what do you think women would benefit from seeing more of on the internet and less of on the internet? 

Jennifer: I think women would benefit from seeing more real bodies, real relationships. There's so much on the internet… Like, just what's there but the real version, honestly, because I think I'm just looking more for real practical… if you're going to talk about things or show things or real practical advice inside of it that most people are vulnerable enough to share. But I think really, ultimately, I think the internet needs more of people being off of the internet - experiencing life. Truly present being in life, off of the internet. You don't have to share everything but live life a little bit and maybe share what your experience was with that and some of the lessons or nuggets that you got from it that we could potentially benefit from - if that's your vibe.